Thursday, October 18, 2007

States of exception in Venezuela

Thanks to my student Kelby for sending me a copy of the additional 25 constitutional reforms proposed by the Venezuelan legislative constitutional commission. They were added after all the traveling around the country to debate the original proposed amendments, but will not be formally debated nationally themselves. Here is a link to that additional list from the Asamblea’s site. There is much to think about, as the scope of the amendments is broad.

Some seem quite good. For example, article 21 specifies equality before the law, and includes ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, creed, social condition, and health “o aquellas que, en general, tengan por objeto o por resultado anular o menoscabar el reconocimiento, goce o ejercicio en condiciones de igualdad, de los derechos y libertades.”

The most controversial are articles 337-339, focusing on states of exception (though the definition of the military’s role also deserves attention). Here is the Spanish (apologies to those of you who don’t read Spanish—I don’t have time to translate).

Artículo 337. El Presidente o Presidenta de la República, en Consejo de Ministros, podrá decretar los estados de excepción. Se califican expresamente como tales las circunstancias de orden social, económico, político, natural o ecológico, que afecten gravemente la seguridad de la Nación, de las instituciones y de los ciudadanos y ciudadanas, a cuyo respecto resultan insuficientes las facultades de las cuales se disponen para hacer frente a tales hechos. En tal caso, podrán ser restringidas o suspendidas temporalmente las garantías consagradas en esta Constitución, salvo las referidas al derecho a la vida, la prohibición de tortura, incomunicación y la desaparición forzosa.

Artículo 338. Podrá decretarse el estado de alarma cuando se produzcan catástrofes, calamidades públicas u otros acontecimientos similares que pongan seriamente en peligro la seguridad de la Nación o de sus ciudadanos y ciudadanas. Podrá decretarse el estado de emergencia económica cuando se susciten circunstancias económicas extraordinarias que afecten gravemente la vida económica de la Nación.

Podrá decretarse el estado de conmoción interior o exterior en caso de conflicto interno o externo, que ponga seriamente en peligro la seguridad de la Nación, de sus ciudadanos y ciudadanas, o de sus instituciones.

Los estados de alarma, de emergencia económica y de conmoción interior o exterior, durarán mientras se mantengan las causas que los motivaron.

Artículo 339. El decreto que declare el estado de excepción, en el cual se regulará el ejercicio del derecho cuya garantía se restringe o suspende, será presentado, dentro de los ocho días siguientes de haberse dictado, a la Asamblea Nacional, o a la Comisión Delegada, para su consideración y aprobación. Al cesar las causas que lo motivaron, el Presidente o Presidenta de la República dejará sin efecto la medida adoptada.

La declaración del estado de excepción no interrumpe el funcionamiento de los órganos del Poder Público.

This is building on a long-standing Latin American political tradition of states of exception (the 1999 Venezuelan constitution as currently worded also includes it, with a 60 day limit). One problem, of course, is defining “national security,” which has been abused so often in Latin America and elsewhere (including, of course, the United States). Further, although the president would need congressional approval for the decree within eight days, after that it would be up to the president alone to decide when to end it. This sort of thing should not be a part of a democracy, no matter what you think of your enemies (or how much your enemies hate you).

Because of its controversial nature, this will be debated in the entire legislature. Assuming it won’t be removed, at the very least there should be:

1) more legislative oversight, including authority over when the state of exception is lifted, and with specific (and very short) time limits that must be constantly approved by the legislature and defended publicly (the 1999 constitution allows the legislature to end it)

2) a role for the judiciary (the 1999 constitution requires the decree to be declared constitutional)

3) a specification of the votes necessary to get initial approval (e.g. a supermajority)

4) more restrictions on what can’t be done to people (the 1999 constitution has more)

5) very specific mention that the legislature and judiciary will continue to function during this time (and not just “los órganos del Poder Público,” which is vague, unless it has a specific legal meaning I am not aware of)

62 comments:

Anonymous,  3:09 PM  

Let's save us some time (imagine that the following lines are written in seven paragraphs and that I am wearing a turtleneck):
-You are missing the context.
-Chavez is always right.
-You don't understand the social sciencies.
-Chavez is never wrong.
-Your university sucks.
-I love Chavez.
-The oposition leaderhsip is responsible for everything that has gone bad in Venezuela.
-Chavez is hot.
-Your logical thinking is not logical and not in line with my logical thinking.
-Chavez is smart.
-I hope Guantanamo was Cuban so we could torture Venezuelan opositionists.
-There is something about Chavez.
-Your spelling sucks.
-Chavez is muscular.
-You don't have a Marxist sense of humor.
-Chavez looks good in red.
-You have never traveled to Venezuela.
-Chavez is fun.
-Etc, etc, etc,

Justin Delacour 3:42 PM  

Indeed, some of the proposed constitutional language is too vague. But it's seriously problematic to single out Venezuela on this score. I'm sure you can find the same sort of vague language in more than a dozen other Latin American constitutions, but that discussion won't see the light of day because it wouldn't be convenient for the Washington establishment. The singular focus on Venezuela --among both academics and the formal establishment-- has little to do with democracy and almost everything to do with attempts to extract the thorn from Uncle Sam's side.

Greg Weeks 3:54 PM  

There is a lot published on this about all Latin American countries, especially in the civil-military relations literature. And as I noted, this is indeed found all over Latin America. Given this constitutional opportunity, I wish Venezuela would break the mold.

Greg Weeks 3:55 PM  

And anonymous, and everyone (including me): let's do ourselves a favor and keep snide comments to a minimum.

Anonymous,  4:21 PM  

OK, OK, but at least admit that Chavez is muscular.

Steven Taylor 7:41 AM  

The notion of states of exception are all too common in Latin American constitutions, yes. However, this version is pretty extreme and fits a broader pattern of centralizing power in the
presidency.

My somewhat educated guess is that this proposed language is especially vague. (Forgive me for not pulling out the appropriate references before the coffee has fully taken effect :)

I do know, for example, that in the Colombian constitution (1991) there are specific time limits and a clear role for the courts and the legislature, and far great limitations on what constitutes an emergency. Further, those powers are at least in the context of ongoing, long-term presidential elections wherein power is not vested in one executive for an undetermined amount of time. The latter point being especially salient to an evaluation of present-day Venezuela.

I also know that it common for emergency decrees to require some sort of legislative or court imprimatur in other cases, although it is often in a retroactive fashion.

(And, btw, none of the above should be construed as a defense of such powers, but rather should be seen as comparative notes).

Justin is correct that the Bush administration has overly focused on the foibles of Venezuela, but that is ultimately irrelevant to any actual evaluation of what Chavez is actually doing. It seems to me impossible to look at what has happened, and the apparent direction that things are going, and not say that he is largely dismantling democracy and consolidating power in the presidency, and ultimately in himself.

Anonymous,  11:57 AM  

Greg, you can read the origianl constitution article in multiple languages (thanks to Chavez!)

http://www.constitucion.ve/constitucion_view_en/view/ver_arbol.pag

Some of us bloggers are translating the modifications to English and commenting on the reforms and what they may mean for Venezuela. If interested:

http://constitutional-reform-venezuela.blogspot.com/

Justin Delacour 12:05 PM  

as I noted, this is indeed found all over Latin America.

It's one thing to note that. It's quite another to focus on one specific case alone and not others.

Unfortunately, there is a steady pattern of such behavior here. You belabor the Venezuelan RCTV case, for example, but when a Nuevo Herald reporter is forced to leave Colombia after being maligned by its president and subsequently receiving 24 death theats in the course of 48 hours, there isn't a peep about it on Greg's blog. Hmmm.

The funny thing about it is that you don't even recognize that your selective standards --your agenda-- is set by the broader political culture within which you operate.

Justin Delacour 12:14 PM  

If you remember, I sided with Chavez on the RCTV case.

Uh, no, Greg, you didn't. You equivocated greatly on the issue, never siding with anyone (as is typical of academics who feign maverickdom).

The broader issue, though, is that the question of press freedom doesn't seem to become an issue here unless Venezuela is the country under the media spotlight.

Greg Weeks 12:18 PM  

That's true--I wrote that and then realized in fact I didn't side with him, so I was going to reword it, but need not bother now. Am I a fake maverick? That is a new one.

Greg Weeks 12:21 PM  

Since this post is about the proposed state of exception reforms, feel free to stop avoiding them.

Justin Delacour 12:32 PM  

Since this post is about the proposed state of exception reforms, feel free to stop avoiding them.

I already said some of the proposed constitutional language is too vague. Indeed, vague constitutional language --WHEREVER it exists-- can facilitate arbitrary governance and abuse. I have no problem with the criticism, provided that it's put into comparative perspective. You don't do that, unfortunately.

The broader question, which you are incapable of answering, is why Venezuelan democracy somehow merits so much more scrutiny than that of other countries in the hemisphere.

As far as I can tell, you're incapable of responding to the charge that your selective standards --your agenda-- is set by the broader political culture within which you operate.

Greg Weeks 12:41 PM  

We're all affected by broader political culture and any number of socialization processes. I am happy to leave it to readers to determine the degree to which they find me biased in certain directions.

Justin Delacour 12:54 PM  

We're all affected by broader political culture and any number of socialization processes.

Indeed, but if the broader political culture proclaims certain standards and then only selectively applies them in ways that serve particular economic and geopolitical objectives, a serious scholar recognizes the hypocrisy of it all and doesn't allow himself to become a mere mouthpiece for the establishment.

Greg Weeks 1:00 PM  

OK, then I will rephrase. I am happy to let readers decide for themselves the degree to which I am a mere mouthpiece for the establishment.

Miguel Centellas 3:08 PM  

Oh, my! Greg, did you forget that you're only allowed to post about issues that Justin thinks are important? It's clear he has a better knowledge of "academia" and "the discipline" than we do.

But I'm still waiting for my new Speak & Spell to come in the mail. Ooooh! Is it coming?

Greg Weeks 7:09 PM  

Justin, I deleted your post. You can be critical, but leave out obscene personal insults.

Anonymous,  8:40 AM  

I actually think that Greg tends to soften his comments to neutralize the punctual, continuous, ideological, snide attacks. The constitutional reform proposal is so obviously wrong and still he doesn't date to criticize it directly:
-Indefinite re-election only for Chavez. Which, by the way, he has managed to get out of the agenda by pushing this fake congressional discussion on the state of emergency and other last minute changes.
-Presidential control of the Central Bank (Which will give Chavez the power to fund his presidential campaigns).
-The whole situation with the state of emergencies here exposed.

This proposal is about concentrating power on Chavez's hands, period.

Miguel Centellas 1:45 PM  

On the one hand, I can understand Justin's argument that singling out a country/issue can be bothersome. Sure, one can argue that bloggers have limited time, and can't address all issues (I suspect that's as true for Justin's blog as it is for Greg's). The question is whether there is a systematic bias in favor covering some kinds of issues/events over others.

Yet, from my experience, Greg's blog seems to address a wide variety of issues, and from a rather broad perspective. The post previous to this one discusses corruption in Mexico city; the post following this one criticizes the US government for pointing towards "terrorist threats" in Latin America. Hardly the kind of thing one seems from a "mouthpiece of the establishment."

Is Greg frequently critical of Venezuela? Yes. Is he frequently critical of the Bush administration? Yes. That hardly seems like ideological dogmatism. By focusing exclusively on the negative references to Venezuela, w/o looking at the other statements that Greg (and others) make, is to miss the broader context (a favorite term of his, ironically). It's also a rather shallow, narrow way to read texts.

For example, I remember being taken to task during the oral portion of my comprehensive exams by the chair of my theory committee (I took comps in both theory and comparative politics) over my position on Hobbes. While my professor was also not a fan of Hobbes (because of his tendency to support authoritarian rule), he insisted that I was unfairly dismissing other elements of Hobbes that were important and worthwhile. In short, he challenged me to look past my objections to Hobbes to look at his broader argument, and to be willing to see on which points he & I could come to some agreement. In other words: To go beyond a knee-jerk reaction to a few passages. It was, perhaps, one of the most valuable lessons I took from graduate school.

Justin Delacour 11:06 AM  

On the one hand, I can understand Justin's argument that singling out a country/issue can be bothersome. Sure, one can argue that bloggers have limited time, and can't address all issues (I suspect that's as true for Justin's blog as it is for Greg's). The question is whether there is a systematic bias in favor covering some kinds of issues/events over others.

Yes, and there's a very simple method for determining whether systematic bias exists. Here's a simple rule of thumb: If, say, one out of two --or one out of three-- debates about the state of democracy in the region center around Venezuela, we have a very serious problem of systematic bias. Latin America has somewhere on the order of 500 million people, with twenty governments, none of which has even close to a perfect set of democratic institutions. If one country with, say, 27 million people is singled out half the time in discussions of the state of democracy in the region, somebody has an axe to grind.

And it's particularly odd when the professor with the axe to grind doesn't even know very much about the country or its politics.

Anonymous,  11:15 AM  

...and Chavez is muscular (sorry Greg).

Miguel Centellas 2:16 PM  

Justin,

You have long established that you know more about Venezuela than Greg or myself. I suspect you also believe you know more about Venezuela than Steve Ellner, Ken Roberts, Margarita López, Bernard Mommer, Jon Hartlyn, Daniel Hellinger, Cynthia McClintock, or John Carey? I'll admit that I'm no "Venezuela specialist" but that list sure is.

Miguel Centellas 2:24 PM  

Justin,

It's also funny that on the times that you've disagreed w/ me about Bolivia, I've not pulled the "I know more about Bolivia so shut up" card. I've also not attacked you for your "bias" in not reporting events that happened in Bolivia (such as the recent airborne comando assault on the Viru Viru airport).

The argument that others must trust what you say because you're an "expert" on a subject (and a self-described one, at that!) is known as an "appeal to authority" logical fallacy. Experts are sometimes wrong. And experts who rely primarily on the "I'm an expert" même should be listened to w/ great skepticism.

I've never argued that I'm an "expert" on Bolivia. But you insist that you are one on Venezuela. From that self-assumption, you then argue that only "non-experts" would contradict you, which means that any contradiction is then "incorrect." Do I understand that correctly?

Anonymous,  2:46 PM  

not to mention camarada persistente's bias towards Venezuela. 99% of his comments here are Venezuela related (I mean Chavez related; he doesn't care nor know much about the the country). Today 22% of his blog content is Chavez related but Chavez doesn't represent 22% of the whole he aims to cover with his holistic-marxisistic theory of bias. And yes, Chavez is hotter than Sean Penn

Anonymous,  2:47 PM  

i meant hole (my english no good)

Justin Delacour 2:50 PM  

You have long established that you know more about Venezuela than Greg or myself. I suspect you also believe you know more about Venezuela than Steve Ellner, Ken Roberts, Margarita López, Bernard Mommer, Jon Hartlyn, Daniel Hellinger, Cynthia McClintock, or John Carey? I'll admit that I'm no "Venezuela specialist" but that list sure is.

Hmmm, Miguel. How exactly does the above assertion follow from my point about GREG not knowing much about Venezuela?

Do you honestly think that I think I know more about Venezuela than Steve Ellner? Than Margarita Lopez-Maya? Please, Miguel.

What I do know is that the majority of people on that list --including Ellner and Lopez-Maya-- are more in accord with my own views on the subject than they are with you or Greg's. That much I know for sure.

But we digress. The key point here is there is a systematic bias in Greg's tendency to single out Venezuela in discussions about the state of democracy in the region.

Justin Delacour 3:03 PM  

As for my own blog, I have no pretense of "objectivity" (whatever that means). I'm a leftist through-and-through, and I don't even pretend to hide it.

If Greg and Miguel didn't pretend to be "objective" on these subjects, I wouldn't feel any need to point out their systematic biases. The systematic biases themselves are much less galling than the pretense of "objectivity" (i.e. Greg's attempt to anoint himself an "objective" arbiter in debates in which he clearly lacks anything even approaching "objectivity").

Anonymous,  3:25 PM  

You are good camarada.
You can be whatever you want to be, but you expect Greg to be what you want him to be.

Then I wonder why you have this thing for Chavez. He is your role model!

Chavez got a cold today, aren't you sad? Must have been the hard planning for his new pet project: A Castro statue!

Justin Delacour 4:01 PM  

You can be whatever you want to be, but you expect Greg to be what you want him to be.

Actually, no. What I expect Greg and Miguel to be is honest. I have no problem saying I'm biased against Bush, Mexico's Calderon, Colombia's Uribe, or El Salvador's Saca. Why can't Greg and Miguel simply acknowledge that they're biased against the Chavez government?

This is what is obnoxious about most political scientists. They don't come clean about their biases. In putting up a smokescreen of "objectivity," they simply disguise their biases so as to make their arguments more persuasive. It's completely disingenuous.

What would be respectable would be for both Greg and Miguel to openly and regularly acknowledge that they're biased against the Venezuelan government and that they selectively --not consistently-- apply certain standards in their assessments of the the state of democracy in the region.

Anonymous,  4:06 PM  

we have a very serious problem of systematic bias.

Miguel Centellas 5:09 PM  

I don't think I've ever hidden my believe that Venezuela's government is today, at best, a "delegative democracy" of the kind O'Donnell wrote about in the early 1990s. I think it fits Levitsky's definition of a "competitive authoritarian" regime better.

Justin: You have a tendency to use personal insults against those who disagree w/ you. That suggests something very disturbing about your personality. Why are you doing this? Is this just to increase the noise to signal ratio?

Justin Delacour 6:02 PM  

I don't think I've ever hidden my believe that Venezuela's government is today, at best, a "delegative democracy" of the kind O'Donnell wrote about in the early 1990s. I think it fits Levitsky's definition of a "competitive authoritarian" regime better.

And I consider the labels pretty meaningless in the absence of comparative analysis.

My point is that you selectively apply certain standards, just as Greg does. If journalists have few effective rights in a country like Colombia (because the president's paramilitary backers threaten critical ones with death), neither you nor Greg nor the U.S. media express the slightest bit of concern about it. Neither you nor Greg ever post anything about how, say, the threats that Colombian journalists face might compromise Colombian democracy.

Oh, but if the Chavez government denies renewal of a public broadcast license to a coup-plotting television station, suddenly the "freedom of speech" is at stake. Never mind that Venezuelan journalists are effectively far far freeer than Colombian ones. Never mind that Venezuelans have access to a greater diversity of perspectives in media than not only Colombians but also Americans. Never mind all that.

Miguel will selectively apply one standard to Venezuela and none at all to Colombia. That's no accident. The bottom line, Miguel, is that, despite your claims, you don't take principled positions on issues. Rather, you just look for opportunities to throw mud at leftist governments.

And if the word "obnoxious" constitutes a "personal insult" to you, then I suggest that you're a bit on the sensitive side, Miguel.

Anonymous,  6:11 PM  

Camarada, you are very good at changing subjects when the subject under discussion is not of your liking.

Do you think that this proposal is justified?

Do you support Chavez's obsession with unlimited re-election?

Do you think that the executive should control the central bank?

Is the president muscular?

Justin Delacour 6:30 PM  

I already commented on the specific language of the constitutional ammendments that Greg highlights.

Do you support Chavez's obsession with unlimited re-election?

Well, that's an interesting way of framing the question. It's not just Chavez that seeks to end term limits. Most of the government's base wants the same thing.

Now, as for my view, I think it's up to the Venezuelan people to make that decision by popular referendum. It's not my country, it's theirs.

There would be nothing out of the ordinary about the executive not having term limits. The English don't have 'em. The Spanish don't have 'em. And neither do the Germans.

So unless this is just another case of where we'll selectively apply one standard to one country and another to Venezuela, I think the Venezuelan people can make that choice for themselves.

Do you think that the executive should control the central bank?

Again, that's up to the Venezuelans to decide.

But I will say this. The notion that an independent Central Bank is somehow a pillar of democracy is a neoliberal sham whose sole purpose is to protect the financial interests of bankers. This doesn't have diddly squat to do with democracy.

Miguel Centellas 8:09 PM  

I wrote: "I don't think I've ever hidden my believe that Venezuela's government is today, at best, a "delegative democracy" of the kind O'Donnell wrote about in the early 1990s. I think it fits Levitsky's definition of a "competitive authoritarian" regime better."

Justin wrote: "And I consider the labels pretty meaningless in the absence of comparative analysis."

I'm not even sure what that means. Comparative analysis? O'Donnell's term is well known. It was developed to describe Menem, Fujimori, and similar presidents. One could also include Bolivia's Goni, Banzer, and others (I even use the term and apply it to Mesa). Levitsky's term is also well known and was developed to describe Fujimori (particularly in his later phase), Mexico under the PRI, Chavez, and others beyond Latin America (ranging from Singapore to Iran to Russia). The articles from which both terms were taken are now part of the comparative democratization canon. Both appeared in the Journal of Democracy and should be readily accessible at any college or university library.

I didn't realize I had to summarize the articles. I assumed that using the terms would suffice, since I assumed an audience of political scientists would instantly know what I meant by "delegative democracy" and "competitive authoritarian" -- especially since I cited the authors associated w/ those terms. Consider it academic shorthand.

Additionally, an earlier article by Collier & Levitsky ("Democracy with Adjectives") is now on most comprehensive exam lists. It provides a list of other terms used in the lexicon, many of which cover Colombia. It ran in World Politics, which is also probably available at any college or university library.

Miguel Centellas 8:15 PM  

Justin is correct that there are number of countries, including liberal democracies, that don't have term limits. There's nothing inherently undemocratic about indefinite reelection (and there's a good argument to be made that preventing reelection is actually "undemocratic").

But the historical tendency in democracies has been to reduce term, not increase them. The US had indefinite reelection, then eliminated it. Most countries have moved in that direction. It was the battle cry of the Mexican revolution.

And expanding terms has not happened in isolation. The history (and not just in Latin America) of heads of state seeking to expand their mandates has not been promising. Menem tried it. Fujimori did it. Uribe seems to want it. That's not a club I'd like to join.

(Did you notice I just criticized Uribe? And did you notice that this comment didn't even mention a certain guy?)

Anonymous,  9:21 PM  

You are very good at not answering questions. As an expert on Venezuela you must have an opinion. Let's ask again.
Do you think that this proposal is justified?

Do you support Chavez's obsession with unlimited re-election?

Do you think that the executive should control the central bank?

Is the president muscular?

Anonymous,  9:31 PM  

They are just questions. It's easy to answer. For instance:

"Yes, under an emergency situation the president should be able to detain anyone he wants and charge them with anything he wants. After all he doesn't make mistakes, except that time he attached the Alan Garcia but then, Alan Garcia is an imbecile."
"Yes, the central bank should be controlled by the president or whoever he chooses to. See he is really smart with money."
"Not really, he is muscular enough for his age, but his charm has to do more with his voice and sense of humor. I would say he is hot but no muscular".

Anonymous,  9:46 PM  

and before your seven paragraphs, please note that Chavez didn't approve the unlimited re-election for other public offices. He referred to those asking for it as "caudillos". This wasn't translated by English speaking media nor incorporated into the latest Chavista's talking points that is why you didn't get it.

Miguel Centellas 11:00 PM  

Yes, I always find it odd that indefinite reelection is good for SOME people, but not others. Justin is right to criticize the hypocrisy of us criticizing Venezuela for proposing that, but not France for having it in its constitution. I'm sure Justin will therefore be equally critical of the Chavez for not wanting to extend that "democratic" right to governors, mayors, etc. Consistency demands it, after all.

Justin Delacour 12:57 PM  

I'm not even sure what that means. Comparative analysis?

It's actually quite simple, Miguel. If terms like "delegative democracy" or "competitive authoritarianism" are arbitrarily applied, in such a way that the practices that they are meant to convey are selectively --not consistently-- denounced, we have a problem of systematic bias.

In other words, if the denial of RCTV's license renewal is selectively denounced while the threats to Colombian journalists are selectively ignored, we have a problem of systematic bias.

I wouldn't have the slightest difficulty demonstrating that your selective application of obstensibly "universal" principles is systematically biased against leftist governments. To cover your ass, you now say --as an aside-- that Uribe is a delegative democrat too. But any cursory glance at your blog will demonstrate that you selectively focus your criticisms on governments like those of Chavez and Morales.

O'Donnell's term is well known. It was developed to describe Menem, Fujimori, and similar presidents. One could also include Bolivia's Goni, Banzer, and others (I even use the term and apply it to Mesa). Levitsky's term is also well known and was developed to describe Fujimori (particularly in his later phase), Mexico under the PRI, Chavez, and others beyond Latin America (ranging from Singapore to Iran to Russia). The articles from which both terms were taken are now part of the comparative democratization canon. Both appeared in the Journal of Democracy and should be readily accessible at any college or university library.

I'm very familiar with the terms and what they mean, and I think O'Donnell is an upstanding scholar. Unfortunately, I think, the Journal of Democracy has a different agenda than O'Donnell. I suspect you know of the Journal of Democracy's relationship with the National Endowment for Democracy (NED). JOD's agenda --like yours-- is to selectively apply ostensibly "universal" principles in efforts malign leftist governments. That is your primary motivation.

Justin Delacour 2:49 PM  

I'm sure Justin will therefore be equally critical of the Chavez for not wanting to extend that "democratic" right to governors, mayors, etc. Consistency demands it, after all.

Really? I could think of any number of reasons to support term limits for one branch of government and not another. Let's look at the U.S. house, for example. Zaller (1992) has explained that one reason why incumbent House Reps have such an advantage in elections is that many voters just don't know enough about the other candidate. This is more of a problem in congressional elections than in presidential ones because voters typically do know something about the challenger to an incumbent in presidential elections.

So, no, in actuality, one could quite logically make an argument for term limits at the congressional level and not at the presidential one on grounds that incumbency at the congressional level --unlike at the presidential one-- constitutes an unfair advantage.

Justin Delacour 3:19 PM  

Do you support Chavez's obsession with unlimited re-election?

I reject the very premise of your question, anonymous. What you're really asking me is whether or not I think ending term limits --which is conceptually distinct from "unlimited re-election"-- is "justified."

What you fail to understand is that I don't consider it "justified" for me to pass judgement about how Venezuelans decide to design THEIR democratic institutions, in the same way that I wouldn't consider it "justified" for you to pass judgement about how Americans decide to design OUR democratic institutions.

You see, I still believe in this crazy, old-fashioned concept called "sovereignty." Greg and Miguel, on the other hand, threw that loony relic up in the attic some years ago, where it's been gathering cob webs.

Unlike Greg and Miguel, I long ago rid myself of the imperialist notion that I --as an American-- have any business telling Venezuelans how they ought to be designing their democratic institutons. That's for the Venezuelans to decide.

Anonymous,  4:59 PM  

Camarada, you are a sea of contradictions.

Are you Venezuelan?
If you are not, and following your logic (which I don't agree with), you shouldn't maintain a pro Chavez propaganda site (you have admitted your bias here). Not to mention your papers on one of the most sovereign subjects I can think of: electoral processes.

Having said that, I don't think that having an opinion is against sovereignty. Anyone should be entitled to express opinions on any given subject. It is called freedom of expression. But, judging from your responses, you only agree with the freedom of expression of those who agree with you.

Anonymous,  5:01 PM  

So, tell us what you think of the constitutional reform and the provisions for the state of emergency. But please, don't change the subject again.

Miguel Centellas 5:07 PM  
This comment has been removed by the author.
Justin Delacour 8:30 PM  

If you are not, and following your logic (which I don't agree with), you shouldn't maintain a pro Chavez propaganda site (you have admitted your bias here). Not to mention your papers on one of the most sovereign subjects I can think of: electoral processes.

To be honest with you, anonymous, I wished we lived in a world where people like me didn't have to challenge the establishment's lies. I wish I didn't have to spend time demonstrating that it is absolutely absurd for American newspapers to flatly label Venezuela a "dictatorship." I wish I didn't have to spend time lobbying against possible U.S. interventionism in places where the U.S. government --MY government-- has no business intervening.

My primary purpose in challenging the lies about Venezuela is to simply obstruct U.S. interventionism in countries where our government has no business intervening.

It is not my business to tell Venezuelans whom to elect or how to design their democratic institutions, but it is my business to tell my fellow countrymen that they are being fed lies and propaganda about Venezuela. The reason it's my business is that, as our history shows, propaganda wars often precede real ones. I consider it my moral duty to lobby against anything that might ever again resemble the Central America wars, so I consider it my moral duty to counteract lies. I'm sorry if you have a problem with that.

Anyone should be entitled to express opinions on any given subject. It is called freedom of expression.

And you are quite entitled to express your opinion, as am I. I --as an American anti-imperialist-- am expressing the view that I don't think it's our business as Americans to tell Venezuelans how to design their democratic institutions. That's my view.

Anonymous,  11:03 PM  

Compañero.
Have you realized that you are not a country, nor an institution?
Does having an opinion imply interventionism?

If you disqualify a comment on the basis of the nationality of its author, you are being discriminatory. But then you support the use of the lista Tascon (interesting opinion for a non interventionist).

I hope you were consistent with your arguments and were focused on your country. If you want the US to become a socialist nation, work for it. I also respect your right to dedicate all your energies to consolidate Hugo Chavez’s power abroad and at home. I think you are wrong, and we can discuss that in Greg’s site.

Would it be that you disagree with the constitutional proposal but don't dare to say it?

Get out of the closet, say it, “Chavez got this one wrong.” It feels good to be right.

Justin Delacour 12:51 PM  

If you disqualify a comment on the basis of the nationality of its author, you are being discriminatory. But then you support the use of the lista Tascon (interesting opinion for a non interventionist).

No, I don't support the use of the lista de Tascon. The difference between you and me is that I recognize the conditions under which it came into being and that the opposition leadership holds primary responsibility for it. No state will hire indiscriminately in the face of a concerted campaign of economic sabotage against it. I think you know this but are just too dishonest to concede the point.

And let's get one thing straight about who's interventionist and who isn't. Do I counsel that the American left go to Venezuela to lobby in favor of the approval of the revised constitution? No, I don't. Do I counsel that the American left provide material assistance to pro-chavista organizations in Venezuela? No, I don't.

I believe that the sovereignty of Venezuela should be respected.

Now, what about you? Do you counsel that the U.S. Office of Transition Initiatives and National Endowment for Democracy should meddle in Venezuela's internal affairs (as they do)? Do you think that U.S. government-controlled organizations ought to be funding Venezuelan "civil society" groups for the purpose of furthering U.S. interests? If so, who's the interventionist?

Unfortunately, the Venezuelan opposition is chock full of people who have no respect for their own country's sovereignty. If I were to invite outside interference in my own country's internal affairs in the same way that much of the Venezuelan opposition invites outside interference in Venezuela's internal affairs, I would be considered a traitor to my country (and for good reason).

So, if you don't want to be called a vendepatria, don't act like one.

I also respect your right to dedicate all your energies to consolidate Hugo Chavez’s power abroad and at home.

No, Venezuelans must decide for themselves how they will be governed at home. I really don't consider that my business. I do consider it my business that the American establishment has launched a propaganda war against Venezuela because the intent of such propaganda is to lay the groundwork more hostile U.S. policy down the road. U.S. policy IS my business.

Anonymous,  8:19 AM  

Camarada,
You sound like a liberal. I am glad you keep your spirit and defend your ideas, regardless of their logical sense.
Are you experiencing a metamorphosis?
You are trying to make a career of meddling into others nations businesses.
You are the first to celebrate Chavist interventionism in Latin America (except that time he affected Humala’s bid).
You love it when Chavez intervenes in the US, in his speeches or via CITGO or the activities of his Public Relations firms.
You preach one thing and do the other.
You act like a radical but are now talking like a moderate.
Please, tell us what you think of this proposed constitutional change and don’t look for cover again.

Justin Delacour 11:18 AM  

Oh, I see how this works, anonymous. I respond to your questions but you evade mine.

I'll respond to your silliness once you've responded to the following:

Do you counsel that the U.S. Office of Transition Initiatives and National Endowment for Democracy should meddle in Venezuela's internal affairs (as they do)? Do you think that U.S. government-controlled organizations ought to be funding Venezuelan "civil society" groups for the purpose of furthering U.S. interests? If so, who's the interventionist?

Unfortunately, the Venezuelan opposition is chock full of people who have no respect for their own country's sovereignty. If I were to invite outside interference in my own country's internal affairs in the same way that much of the Venezuelan opposition invites outside interference in Venezuela's internal affairs, I would be considered a traitor to my country (and for good reason).

So, if you don't want to be called a vendepatria, don't act like one.

Anonymous,  1:26 PM  

Answer to your questions (which are not part of this debate):
No, I don't.

Now,stop looking for a cover.Don't be affraid to share your opinion on the specific constitutional amendment hereby discussed.

I promisse not to ask if you work for the CIA (since you try so badly to gain Chavez's favor)

Justin Delacour 2:48 PM  

Answer to your questions (which are not part of this debate):
No, I don't.


Not part of this debate? You accuse me of advocating Venezuelan "interventionism" in the United States, but somehow it's not "part of this debate" for me to ask you whether you advocate U.S. interventionism --real interventionism-- in Venezuela?

That's an interesting set of standards you've got there, anonymous.

So when are you going to start telling partisan Venezuelan "civil society" groups to stop taking money from the National Endowment for Democracy and the Office of Transition Initiatives? Will you be writing any articles criticizing U.S. meddling in Venezuela's internal affairs? I'm oh so curious.

Don't be affraid to share your opinion on the specific constitutional amendment hereby discussed.

The specific amendments that Greg quoted? Perhaps if you read through the thread, you would see that I wrote the following about the specific amendments that Greg quoted:

some of the proposed constitutional language is too vague. Indeed, vague constitutional language --WHEREVER it exists-- can facilitate arbitrary governance and abuse.

As for that amendment to end presidential term limits, Greg's post never addressed that. As I've told you time and time again, I consider that a Venezuelan affair. What I would say is that EITHER the maintenance of term limits or their abolition is consistent with internationally-recognized democratic norms, so that's a matter for Venezuelans to settle.

Why is my answer so difficult for you to understand?

Let me provide you with an analogy to spell it out for you. Spain, England and Germany do not have term limits on the executive branch. Nobody expects political scientists to denounce Spain, England and Germany for not having term limits.

So why --if either term limits or the lack therof are consistent with internationally-recognized democratic norms-- must I have any particular preference with regard to Venezuela?

Anonymous,  8:59 PM  

Not part of this debate? You accuse me of advocating Venezuelan "interventionism" in the United States ,…"

You introduced the subject out the blue. I followed suit. This post is about the constitutional reform and about the provision related to the state of emergency in particular.

"Why is my answer so difficult for you to understand?"

Because your answers then to be evasive,long, intricate and boring. But I have to admit that it is clear to me that you are against this provision. That is commendable. Please accept my congratulations and my apology for not double reading your cantinflada.

"Nobody expects political scientists to denounce Spain, England and Germany for not having term limits."
I see it now. What you really are after is the establishment of a proletariat monarchy in Venezuela. Don't Spain and England have monarchies? First unlimited terms, a chamber of leftist lords, then a monarchy, next thing we have death penalty and we are driving on the left side. That is progress!

Justin Delacour 10:46 AM  
This comment has been removed by the author.
Justin Delacour 10:49 AM  

I see it now. What you really are after is the establishment of a proletariat monarchy in Venezuela. Don't Spain and England have monarchies? First unlimited terms, a chamber of leftist lords, then a monarchy, next thing we have death penalty and we are driving on the left side. That is progress!

Indeed, anonymous, why don't you take that message to the world? What dastardly "monarchical" models of no term limits we find in... Spain, England and Germany!! Just look at whom these Chavistas are seeking to emulate!!

Anonymous,  6:51 PM  

And yet you are against the provision because it
"can facilitate arbitrary governance and abuse."

Justin Delacour 8:14 PM  

And yet you are against the provision because it
"can facilitate arbitrary governance and abuse."


Uh, no, anonymous, those were separate provisions having nothing to do with the question of term limits. See Greg's original post.

Justin Delacour 8:17 PM  

Greg was talking about the "State of Exception" provisions, not the question of term limits.

Anonymous,  9:07 PM  

That is exactly what I meant. You are against the State of Exception provision because ""can facilitate arbitrary governance and abuse."

You however, support the unlimited re-election provisions because they also have it in Spain and the UK and because you consider yourself a non interventionist.

Anonymous,  9:08 PM  

by the way I said provision no provisions.

Justin Delacour 12:07 AM  

You are against the State of Exception provision because 'can facilitate arbitrary governance and abuse.'"

Against it? Well, I've made an objective observation that it could conceivably facilitate arbitrariness, yes, but I still don't feel it's my place to tell Venezuelans how they should vote on it.

Let me provide you with an analogy to clarify the point here. I don't like the death penalty, but I wouldn't want non-U.S. governments to place coercive pressures on the United States to abolish it because that would be an encroachment upon U.S. sovereignty. I'm very uncomfortable with establishing the precedent that some states can encroach upon other states' sovereignty because such a precedent often enables the powerful to impose themselves upon the weak (typically for reasons that have little to do with the stated rationales of the powerful).

Unfortunately, the U.S. propaganda war against Venezuela has quasi-coercive characteristics because, behind the propaganda, there lies the ever-present threat that the U.S. government will escalate its hostility in ways that would be much more repugnant than Venezuela's State of Exception provisions.

It's one thing for the internationally community to politely and unthreateningly urge adherence to basic democratic norms. It's quite another thing to selectively and quasi-coercively foist certain contested standards on Venezuela, standards that we don't apply to other countries that the U.S. government deems less threatening to U.S. interests (such as England, Spain, and Germany).

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